Inside the Dabbagh Trial #03
TRIAL OF ALI MAMLOUK, JAMIL HASSAN AND ABDEL SALAM MAHMOUD
OR “DABBAGH TRIAL”
Court of Appeal – Paris, France
Hearing Date: May 23, 2024
CAUTION: Some testimony includes descriptions of torture.
Note that this summary is not a verbatim transcript of the trial; it is merely an unofficial summary of the proceedings.
Throughout this summary, [information located in brackets are notes from our trial monitor] and “information placed in quotes are statements made by the witness, judges or counsel.” The names and identifying information of witnesses have been redacted.
[Note: SJAC continues to provide a summary of the proceedings while redacting certain details to protect witness privacy and to preserve the integrity of the trial.]
Highlights: SJAC’s 3rd trial monitoring report details Day 3 of the trial of Ali Mamlouk, Jamil Hassan, and Abdel Salam Mahmoud in Paris, France. On this trial day, two Syrian witnesses gave their testimony in the morning. They were both detained at Al-Mazzeh detention center. In the afternoon, the three civil parties, namely the brother and sister-in-law of Mazen Dabbagh as well as Mazen Darwich, shared their testimony.
Day 03 – May 23, 2024
On this trial day, the proceedings began at 09:40 AM with around 45 spectators in the gallery and around 30 journalists in a mezzanine floor located above the gallery. The gallery was full so that the guards had to refuse entry to some people. Among the spectators, Syrians used the headphones available for direct Arabic translation. Only one or two of the journalists used headphones. A separate room located in another building of the Court was opened from the first trial day. Only less than a dozen spectators attended there.
Testimony of Witness W3
W3 spoke in Arabic. During his testimony, W3’s voice was so low that Judge Raviot asked him once or twice to speak louder. But W3 lowered his voice again so that most of his testimony remained inaudible to the audience who could first only listen to the French translation and at some point, the other interpreter started to also repeat in Arabic what W3 was saying so that all Arabic speaking spectators could follow.
Judge Raviot asked W3 to present himself and give a spontaneous testimony before answering questions. W3 took an oath before the court.
The witness lives in Paris and was born in Duma, Syria. He has no link with the accused but was friend with [members of the SCM lead by Mazen Darwich who is civil party to the case].
W3 related that at the end of April 2011 [April 30, 2011], he was arrested at Wael’s home. They [the people who arrested him] were looking for Wael and his wife, Razan, and assaulted W3 to obtain information on their location. They searched the house and tried to gather evidence (documents, DVD, CD-Rom). After two hours, they put W3 in a car (سيارة). There were weapons in the vehicle. [W3 is overwhelmed by emotion]
W3 explained they were trying to find Wael by geolocating him through his cellphone. W3 said they identified a precise location in Damas, but “I do not remember where it was.” W3 said he was in the vehicle while they were looking for Wael. After 1:30 of searches, they still had not found Wael and W3 was incarcerated at the Air Base of the Air Force Intelligence. The very same day, torture started from morning to night. They tied him up and his eyes were covered with a headband. They assaulted him with their hands, wooden planks, and all questions they asked were about Wael and where he and Razan were located. W3 said he was lucky not to know where they were. He would have said it if he knew. He was threatened under torture that his nails and hair would be removed.
W3 was put in a cell. Every day, he came out three times to go to the toilets, wearing underpants. W3 explained they were of course assaulted on the way to or back from the toilets. Time was counted and they had to hurry up. Showering was permitted once [a week] They would endure torture and violence before taking a shower.
This situation lasted around 40 days, and around the last 10 days, W3 said that interrogations and torture decreased. He then discovered that they had arrested Wael. W3 understood that they [he and the other cellmates] were located close to Wael.
After each meal, if someone was found with wet feet on the way back from the toilets, you were suspected of having performed [ritual] ablutions and beaten up. You had to go back with dry feet. You would of course go to the toilets barefoot, W3 explained, and necessarily had wet feet afterwards.
In 2012, W3 was arrested again as he was working with the Syrian Media Center [SCM] of Mazen Darwish. That day, W3 recalled he was preparing for his birthday. The Air Force Intelligence Services came to the Office and stayed around 2 hours discussing with [the team]. W3 recalled that they took them in a bus (باص), without blindfolding their eyes, so they could see where they went. After arriving at their destination, they gave them their belongings back. They placed them in a cell whose surface was 4 meters by 5 meters. W3 said he did not exactly recall the first 2 or 3 days that they were interrogated. Mazen Darwish got out of the group cell (جماعية) and [W3 and the other inmates] then discovered he was sleeping in the corridor. Two days later, they were placed in an even smaller cell. W3 said there were 7 people in the first cell, “if I recall correctly.” The new cell was 1.5 meters by 1 meter. It was not possible to sleep, someone had to stand so that the other could have a rest. “If I recall correctly.” W3 said they stayed at the Air Force Intelligence Services during the first detention month. He does not recall having been tortured directly but you would hear screams of people who would be assaulted at night.
Going to the toilets was the same story, W3 said he does not have many memories. The fact that you could almost not relieve yourself was also torture.
W3 said that they [he and the other cellmates] needed to know their fate after that. The first three days, [W3 and the other inmates] decided to go on hunger strike. W3 said he does not recall how long but in the end, they were transferred by the 4th Division. Without meaning to, they resumed eating and stopped their strike. There were around 30 people, more or less “I do not recall.” Three people were tied to one chain. W3 related they would walk tied to this chain. They [the guards] transferred them saying “those people are educated, take care of them.” “I do not recall exactly,” W3 said.
When [W3 and the other inmates] were transferred to the 4th division, cruel acts of torture began. They were all tied with the same chain and blindfolded, as W3 remembered. There was a room and a line of guards who had torture material. One holds a chain, the other a plastic tube, electricity [cable], everyone had his specialty of how to torture. [W3 and the other inmates] moved forward a step and stepped back, move forward and step back. At one point, there were two or three stairs, and they could not see anything since they were blindfolded, so they fell. At that point, W3’s colleague [name redacted] got hurt on his knee “I do not recall,” if it was bleeding or just a bruise. When they arrived in front of the cell’s door, W3 recalled, they were forced to undress and do some gestures, to squat naked twice [W3 does the move in front of the court while relating the scene] because they [the guards] thought they hid something.
They [the guards] got them in the cell which was bigger than the one at the Air Force Intelligence Services. The prisoners welcomed them very kindly and W3 remembered to have heard sounds of voice receiving people [the new detainees] (صوت استقبال أشخاص). They were not tortured on the way, the person was directly placed in the cell. The prisoners informed them that the voices they heard before W3 [and the other inmates’] arrival were different from usual.
W3 recalled the rule that a new detainee had to see a doctor and he had an appointment that day, but it was not a real appointment. The new inmates got out of the cell and saw the doctor. You were asked if you had a disease or were under treatment. While getting out or going back to the cell, W3 said they were crawling [on four legs], assaulted, electrocuted, interrogated and at the same time one would ask if someone had a problem. They [the guards and/or the doctors, unclear] would take notes. W3 said he fell on his foot due to the metal frame of the door. He was so lost that he fell and stayed in this state with a swollen and bruised foot for two weeks. After that, puss came out of his foot. W3 said he did not receive any treatment and had to treat his wound with water.
W3 described there was a sink and a toilet in a corner of the cell. The first week, they [the guards] would call the new inmates to torture. Each detainee was asked about his profession and specialization. Ayman, their friend at the Center [SCM] said he was a doctor and was then tortured much more than others. [W3 stops testifying and is overwhelmed by emotion]. W3 resumed saying that their friend disappeared, and his photo was found among the Caesar file.
[5 minutes break for W3 to take a break]
Every day, [the guards] called the new inmates for special torture. In turn, torture stopped on the old inmates and started on the new ones. What was special in that center, W3 explained, was that they had to keep a headband above their eyes to eat, sleep, all the time, so that they could drop it on their eyes as soon as the guard arrived. Because if they were seen without that blindfold, they were directly called for a torture session. It became a reflex to kneel against the wall with the band on the eyes whenever they would hear electricity. It was when they [the guards] got them out for torture sessions, to give them food or [let the inmates eat] their leftover meals. Every time they [the guards] entered, they assaulted the inmates from the last row, started torturing them and got out. Sometimes, they asked the inmates from the last row to step on the shoulders of the ones in front, while still torturing them.
One day, W3 said he did not exactly recall date and time, it was special. They [the guards] called a person by profession for a torture session and they asked for the engineer to come. W3 said he was not an engineer but an accountant, but they insisted he was an engineer. W3 explained that the inmates could not tell why they did this on that day, maybe because someone inside communicated with outside. As usual, the torture session proceeded with wooden sticks and plastic cables, and they also whipped him with kicks. These lasted the entire period spent at the 4th Division and only a few days passed without torture sessions. In general, physical torture was daily, W3 recalled.
W3 started describing psychological torture. The inmates had to sleep a maximum of 2 hours after dinner. A ventilation shaft led directly into the guards’ Office and if the inmates were not asleep, the guards came down and submitted them to torture. W3 said [he and the inmates] always heard an electric rod when [the guard] walked, and directly recognized it. W3 said they needed time to get used to these signs and surrounding noises and were then able to hear [and understand what was happening] more. The location was not sunny at all.
At the start, W3 recalled they were around 70 inmates and slept in a maximum 40 square meters. Then, they stopped counting and reached 120 people. It was very very hot in the summer. They tried to fan one another with their clothes. But 120 people on this surface is not livable. They suffered lots of diseases: lice, scabies, pimples all over the body, etc. They tried to treat everything with water. They wore the same clothes for months.
Once, lunch composed of [bulgur] and meat was served and two hours later, everyone got diarrhea. W3 explained that there was a problem with the meat at the central kitchen and on that day, all detention centers around were affected by [diarrhea] [the translator said gastroenteritis but does not make sense in that context]. It was one of the hardest days, W3 recalled. In the cell, there was only one toilet and three of them had to use it at the same time since they had to go to the toilet every half an hour. It lasted 24 hours and they [the prison administrators] tried to treat it but the treatment did not start right away, they realized the problem 4 hours later and then reacted.
One day, haircut time had come. W3 related that when they arrived at the [4th Division] center, they noticed the long beards and hair of former prisoners and understood afterwards. Every 6 months, they got their hair cut and it was also a means of torture. W3 explained they would put on their underwear and they did not get the hair cut but pulled from their head. W3 said they might have been lucky that day that the haircut session started with their cell, because he recalled having heard voices of the inmates from the next cell while being subjected to haircut. The reason why these other inmates were tortured is that they [the guards] discovered they had tried to arrange their appearance on their own. W3 said the inmates of his cell also tried to cut their hair by themselves with a nail clipper once.
W3 repeated he does not recall many details but has memories of the last period of his detention. The day of his release, they were brought to an Office to sign papers and put their fingerprints on a piece of paper. They could not read and understand what they signed. There were no minutes of their hearings so it could not be related to what he had confessed during his hearing. All inmates were chained and asked which city or village they were from. When they [the guards] realized W3 was from Douma, it was like a curse falling on his head, because there were many demonstrations against the regime in Douma. W3 was beaten up. W3 explained he has had difficulty breathing, it creaks when he takes a deep breath [W3 made the move to show to the court]. Now it has gotten much better than before.
Presiding Judge Raviot questioning of W3
Presiding Judge Raviot asked W3 how he could survive such hardship and horror. W3 replied that fortunately, human beings adapt. To live was what helped him throughout hardship. His first arrest was also an experience that helped him endure his second detention period. Solidarity between inmates also helped him, particularly during the second detention period.
Judge Raviot stated that W3 left Syria shortly after and W3 confirmed he left 2 months after his second incarceration. Judge Raviot clarified that his first detention lasted for 60 days and his second for a year. Judge Raviot asked if he was frequently interrogated during the second period and if he was informed of the reason for his incarceration. W3 specified the hearings lasted the first 2 to 3 days at the Center of the Air Force Intelligence Services and stopped. According to W3’s analysis, he was detained because of his work at SCM which was against the regime. Judge Raviot said W3 went before a judge twice, which W3 confirmed. Judge Raviot asked if W3 knew the reason why he was released. W3 explained he cannot tell if someone paid a bribe or not. His [female] lawyer arranged his release on bail and W3 had to come back later for his trial.
Judge Raviot asked W3 if some of his family members were also detained. W3 explained that on the day he was released, his brother was still in detention and his second brother [name redacted] got arrested the same day. He knew his brother was in detention because he saw him at the prison of Adra. Judge Raviot asked what happened to his brother next. W3 said his second brother [name redacted] got arrested at a checkpoint because his name appeared on a list, but it turned out it was another person with the same name who was wanted. Despite that mistake, his brother was tortured. The same happened to his other brother. One of his brothers is now in Germany, the other is still in Syria. Judge Raviot asked how he left Syria and W3 said with a smuggler. Since he was summoned to court at a later date and his name was on the list of the wanted, he left illegally.
Judge Raviot inquired about jailers’ practices that consisted of using inmates to denounce others in what became a denunciation system and wanted W3 to describe these practices and how they could enable them to avoid torture. W3 explained that there was a chief of the group in each cell who was appointed in an agreement with the guard who would ask him in return to provide 3 persons every day for torture sessions. The guard chooses the persons [the witness likely meant that the guards chose the chiefs of the group]. “I forgot that.” W3 recalled that after their transfer to the 4th Division, they felt someone had to be tortured every night and eventually understood that the chief of the group wanted a person to be more tortured than others.
Judge Raviot stated W3 remembered a friend in the Caesar file [Ayman] and asked how he disappeared and how his corpse was identified. W3 explained he was detained with his colleagues during his second incarceration and a group of them were released after a month while [name redacted] and Ayman remained in custody. A month after W3’s arrest [time unclear], Ayman got out [of the detention center] and nobody knew where he went. When [W3 and the other inmates] were transferred [to the 4th Division], they started communicating with outside and understood that Ayman had been released, then arrested again and subjected to torture. W3 thinks Ayman disappeared following his second arrest and does not know anything since that date. People outside knew more, and they informed W3 of Ayman’s fate without more details.
Judge Raviot asked W3 if he fears potential reprisals on his family after his escape from Syria and his testimony at the present trial. W3 related that his brother who still lives in Damascus tries to go unnoticed and avoid anything official like buying a car, which his wife takes care of. He regularly goes back to his family home but never stays long because he is under surveillance. Now it is getting better. Once, they searched his house because his mother and brother [name redacted] were there. W3’s brother [name redacted] was arrested at his workplace, tortured and released. W3 confirmed he is afraid of the consequence of his testimony and would like them to get out of Syria.
Judge Raviot inquired about the jailers’ identity at Mazzeh detention center and other structures. Judge Raviot stated that W3 gave broad information during his hearing by the investigative judge, could not locate Mazzeh and, when asked about directors of the detention center, only specified that Jamil Hassan oversaw the Air base. W3 confirmed he knew that Jamil Hassan oversaw the Air Force Intelligence Services at that time and that the base was located close to the Al-Mazzeh Airport but did not recall details. W3 stated he was unable to see the persons who tortured him. Judge Raviot asked W3 to confirm his allegation that Abdel Salam Mahmoud led one of the branches. W3 confirmed.
Judge Raviot asked W3 about long-term effects, mentioning his statement during an interview by the investigative judge in January 2019 on sleep disorder and rumination of what occurred. W3 confirmed he still has long-term effects. One of his brothers disappeared with his wife and he does not even know whether they are with the regime or with Jaysh Al-Islam. He also must endure his personal suffering consequent to his time in detention and cannot close his eyes when he is alone. He tries to take distance with information related to Syria and works only with French people to get the impression that everything is all right. Judge Raviot asked if he could benefit from psychological assistance and W3 said no. Judge Raviot inquired if he needs it and W3 said yes but he is not ready yet.
Judge Raviot asked how much time W3 had been working for SCM when he got arrested on February 16, 2012 and if he already worked there at the time of his first arrest. W3 explained he was already working with Razan Zaitouneh [founder of Violations Documentation Center (VDC)] because he was in charge of publishing videos of the demonstrations on the Internet. He started working for SCM after his first release.
Judge Simeoni questioning of W3
Judge Simeoni paraphrased W3 statements to the investigative judge explaining that around 15 people were working at the Center [SCM] and asked if W3 was the only one arrested. Everybody was arrested beside Maha S., W3 answered, and they learnt he left thereafter. Judge Simeoni wanted to know if they were all detained during the same period and W3 said they [the Intelligence Services] searched and arrested them and people were released after 15 days, others after 2 months and others, like W3, after a year. [W3 quoted names of persons working with him]. Mazen Darwish stayed over the entire period, from 3 to 3.5 years, W3 stated.
Judge Simeoni asked for what reason the Center [SCM] stopped existing thereafter. W3 said it did not exist in Syria and that Mazen Darwish can give a better answer. Judge Simeoni then inquired about his residential status in France and W3 stated he has a 10-year residence permit. She further asked how one can live in France after such hardship and if one remains afraid of others. W3 relayed his everyday life: the first year, he lived at a friend’s place for 2 months and made new friendships. Ten months later, he got a house and stayed there for 4 years. He obtained a residence permit during that time and took French language classes. He then registered for a work-study contract in accounting and found a job. The Center [SCM] managed to open an office in France during that period. W3 was simultaneously employed in a French company and at the Center, each position part time. W3 got married, managed to buy a House and left Paris not to endure the pressure of a city. He tried to make distance with the Syrian question as much as he could but always tried to maintain ties with his family, especially his mother. W3 said he cannot always talk to her because of the bad internet connection, but also because he does not always feel like it, talking to people inside Syria requires courage. What helped him was to have a family and friends and to be in a country with rules everybody submits to. Syrians hope that people who committed torture will be punished one day.
Judge Simeoni asked W3 how he felt while the trial was approaching and W3 answered he was afraid for his family. He himself feels protected in France. Judge Simeoni wondered if W3 hoped to go back to Syria one day and W3 replied that his life is in France now, where he has a family. His wife is French.
Assistant of Civil parties’ Counsel Pasmantier questioning of W3
Counsel Pasmantier thanked W3 for his moving testimony and asked how old he was on February 16, 2012 when he got arrested. W3 replied he was born in 1989 and was around 22 years old at that time. Counsel Pasmantier inquired about the activities of Wael and his wife Razan at the time of W3’s first arrest in April 2011. W3 said he does not have many details. Razan was a lawyer and defended political prisoners. She was a colleague of Mazen Darwish and both worked in the human rights field. They wrote articles against the regime. W3 did not know more than that concerning Wael and wife Razan.
Counsel Pasmantier understood that after his arrest in 2012, W3 was interrogated only a few times and wondered if torture occurred throughout the entire detention period. W3 specified that during the interrogation, there was no physical torture. Torture started after the transfer to the 4th Division. Torture also occurred during his first detention but the second time he was not tortured while been investigated.
W3 told the investigative judge that jailers would be threatened if they did not take a detainee to torture sessions and Counsel Pasmantier asked if the guards had instructions to torture inmates. W3 said he does not know; it concerns the leadership of the detention center.
Attorney General Viguier questioning of W3
Attorney General Viguier had no questions for W3.
[Break at 11:32 AM and until 11:57 AM]
A new interpreter took an oath before the court. His translation was much clearer than the one before. W4 spoke in Arabic and his voice was audible to the whole audience.
Testimony of Witness W4
[The witness said he understood French but preferred to talk in Arabic]
Judge Raviot asked W4 to present himself and give a spontaneous testimony before answering questions.
The third witness lives and works in Paris in the restoration field. He was born in Damascus, Syria. He has no link with the accused nor with the civil parties. W4 took an oath before the court.
W4 related that it is prejudicial for Syrians that two French-Syrian nationals disappeared and that a trial occurred because of that. W4 said they [the Syrian victims] lost the most beautiful youthful years in that conflict and as well as many close relations. Of course, the investigation is carried out in the name of all victims who perished because of this tyrant and his security apparatus. W4 said he has no ties with the civil parties or the accused but can imagine the suffering (معاناة) they endured because W4 was detained at Mazzeh Airbase which at the time was led by accused Jamil Hassan. W4 said he is ready to answer questions.
Presiding Judge Raviot reminded the general framework: W4 was heard by the investigative judge on February 14, 2019 and Judge Raviot said he had access to it. Judge Raviot further explained that in a Criminal Court, the principle of immediacy prevails and that is why witnesses are summoned to report orally about what they witnessed, if they are victims of crimes, or witnesses of context. Judge Raviot said several elements interest the court: the condition of detention, which violence and torture they endured, who was responsible, if you have information on practices other persons were submitted to, if you know victims of the case file or heard of them, what you know about the three accused and their potential implication in the facts. Judge Raviot then clarified that a case of crimes against two persons, a father and his son, was submitted to the court, under a particular incrimination that requires a study of the system where that occurred. The fact of death is tried in front of a classic court but here, a different dimension requires them to examine the broadest context related to what is called a crime against humanity. Judge Raviot stressed this is the reason why W4’s testimony is important.
W4 said he has some modifications to add to his testimony. Sadly, W4 could recognize some pictures of his relatives on the Caesar file. One of the family survivors could make it to France, he was young and survived to the regime’s prisons. The fate of many W4 family members remains unknown.
On May 9, 2011, W4 was arrested at his home in Damascus because of his brother’s and father’s opposition to the regime, members (عناصر) of the Air Force came to arrest him. W4 was on a bus (حافلة) on the first day and it was particularly difficult because he turned around the city to catch other of W4’s family members. That day, around 1,200 people from the Damascus region of Al-Mo'addamiyyeh (المعضمية) were arrested at once and transferred to Al-Mazzeh Airbase. They were placed in a small cell, around 30 to 40 square meters large, with approximately 140 people. W4’s long interrogation journey started here, first with questions related to his family members. The next day, as the interrogation started, W4 recalled having been beaten on his teeth and having lost them during the interrogation. W4 recalled to not have clearly understood the questions ( أسئلة غير معروفة) as their interrogation did not seem a classic questions and answers but consisted of very broad questions, asking repeatedly why W4 chose these studies, where his father is located and if his father aimed to become president. W4 indicated they were blindfolded all the time and did not recognize if it was day or night; they lost sense of time. The transfer inside Al-Mazzeh Airbase consisted of several branches [unclear]. W4 and the other inmates were displaced every now and then between interrogation rooms and what W4 calls dormitories [or group cells] where they would sleep.
After a month, most of the young men were released, or were not there anymore, in any case W4 remained alone because of his father’s situation. To be more precise, W4 related he was maybe not the only detainee, but almost the only one who stemmed from his region [Al-Mo'addamiyyeh]. There were other inmates from Dara’a, Hama, Homs, and other governorates. In that period, W4 was extracted every day for interrogation and saw acts of torture happening in front of him. Questions would not move forward; it was always vague “where are your family members? Where are they?”.
One day people in plainclothes were sent to the Golan to deflect media attention. W4 was with other inmates on the road in the surrounding area, they were stopped and could hear ambulance sirens. Suddenly, they arrived in the room where W4 was located and said they just arrested around 1,000 persons of his region, Al-Mo'addamiyyeh. W4 did not know their faces, only heard their voices.
Jamil Hassan interrogated W4 in person in his cabinet. He tried to ask the same vague questions about W4 family members. As W4 responded “you still keep asking me this question after two months of interrogation, I of course repeat that I do not know”. Confronted with such an answer, Jamil Hassan got angry and walked out to meet the guards and tell them to add W4’s name to the list of the persons who had to be punished. Jamil Hassan literally told them “I want to hear his voice scream under torture.” They started torturing W4 at the door threshold. That day, they put a rope around W4’s hands, and W4 was tied suspended on his tiptoes. W4 recalled having stayed like that until the next day.
W4 explained this scene stressing that he saw nothing. His jailer asked him to move so that he could untie the rope. W4 specified several ways of tying inmates: classical ropes or plastic ropes. W4 stated he could not drop his arms since his muscles did not respond. His jailer insisted and dropped his arms by force what led to dislocation of both shoulders. W4 developed a problem with his ligament at the same time and his bone almost pulled out, dislocated. The jailers transferred him again to the initial location where all inmates were together. There were people from Dara’a and doctors among them. One doctor confirmed his shoulder was dislocated and it should be manipulated to be back in place. The doctor had W4 lay down and tried to put it back. After his release, W4 had an x-ray, and it was confirmed his shoulder had been dislocated.
W4 concluded by saying he is ready to answer questions.
Presiding Judge Raviot questioning of W4
Judge Raviot recalled W4’s arrest on May 9, 2011, stressed that he was brought before a judge who released him and asked for clarification on the date when that occurred. W4 replied he was released after 3 months and a few days. W4 further explained that upon his release, he was transferred to the criminal security department’s (فرع الامن الجنائي) building of Al-Mazzeh Air Base where he had to sign lots of documents with his fingerprints, while blindfolded. W4 signed with his two hands tied. W4 felt the policemen from the criminal security department were afraid to be in contact with the [inmates] and it was as if they saw those things for the first time. They were used to dealing with thieves (حرامية) and criminals, not with such detainees. The political opponents represented the greatest danger for the State, they were considered the worst criminals. W4 proceeded, stating that all inmates were then transferred into several cellars on purpose, so that no one could tell where they were. They were in a state of misery.
After his transfer, W4 related he was subjected to torture with electricity to sensitive body parts [genitals]. The [jailers] sent electric loads on purpose in this area because it causes involuntary urination. That left marks on the body, sorts of circles, which reminded W4 of other marks caused by cigarette butts. W4 added that the agents from the criminal security department were shocked when they saw the marks on their bodies, and tried to be more tender.
After the criminal security department, W4 was transferred to civil tribunals (مدنية) [to be distinguished from the military tribunal]. W4 saw the civil judge for the first time, who was from Darayya, and asked him questions related to his confessions (اعترفات), for example among them, the fact of having stolen medical tools to furnish the “saboteurs”, the opponents. The medical center the judge mentioned was famous for being a pediatric center containing vaccines for children. W4 said to the judge he has been blamed for having stolen tools, but the judge well knew what could be found there, like vaccines for children. W4 related he was accused of unrealistic charges, like to have broken windows in that or that street, vandalized pictures of Bashar Al-Assad, whereas it did not happen, not at all. W4 said to the judge he signed with his fingerprints lots of documents he did not see, and the judge might receive a document stating W4 sold his house, without W4’s knowledge. W4 was right and realized progressively that several things had changed and that goods belonging to him, and his family were seized. For example, real estate from his brother was seized for the benefit of the Air Force Intelligence Directorate and the Military Intelligence Services.
Judge Raviot stressed that according to the transcript, W4 was 25 years old at that time, and a student in law, which W4 confirmed. Judge Raviot asked which activity W4 was carrying out upon his arrest. W4 said he was in the family house and came back from Lebanon to Syria a few months before to stay with his parents. At the start of the revolution, 11 or 15 people were wanted by the regime. W4 stated there were around 6 people in their house alone and among the wanted were W4’s father and brothers because they all took part in the first demonstration where they asked the regime to give back the occupied territories of Al-Mazzeh Air Base that belonged to people from their region. A national law seized the lands and distributed them to people from the Syrian coast (الساحل السوري). The housing became headquarters for the shabiha.
Judge Raviot came back to torture methods W4 described to the investigative judge (electrocution on genitals, wrist suspension after interrogation by Jamil Hassan, shoulder dislocation, car tire [doulab], assault to the point of fainting, mock execution, and an interrogation where W4 asked his jailers to kill him; W4 stressed that these acts happened daily. W4 related that this interrogation [where he asked to be killed] took place on a Tuesday, the day where roast chicken was served to prisoners. W4 was extracted from the cell right before the meal and came back after. The inmates could hide some pieces for W4 without the jailers noticing.
W4 further explained he was interrogated that day because of what happened with a boy from Darayya called Ward who was arrested and brought to their cell. The boy told W4 he was arrested because he was standing in front of a demonstration that passed near his home and the regime arrested everybody without distinction. Because of his young age, W4 advised the boy to go next to the door, cry, and ask for his mother, and the jailers might have a moment of tenderness and realize he is a child. The jailers took him out of the cell and interrogated him. W4 does not know what they did to him but during his own interrogation, they blamed W4 for having encouraged the child to do such things.
W4 mentioned another 13-year-old boy from Dara’a who suffered so much torture that he could not feel his feet anymore (رجله). Prior to his arrest, the boy worked in a chicken coop and would remain barefoot every day so that his feet became quite numb. Since he reacted less than others, the jailers slapped him even harder on his feet.
Lots of people from Dara’a were there at that time. The rooms where interrogations took place were located around a courtyard, detainees were placed in different rooms [unclear].
Two detainees were taken away, and a person and his nephew came. The nephew had lived in the Emirates and came back to Syria when he was 18 years old. It was the first time he traveled to his family, with his first passport. This is an interesting example. He arrived at the border with Jordan and was interrogated on reasons why he was in the demonstrations. He was told they had pictures of him, and the boy was answering he just arrived and was not in Syria.
Judge Raviot emphasized three elements of his testimony before the investigative judge. At that time, W4 seemed less convinced of the identity of Jamil Hassan than today and said he did not know him, but it could have been him and one could tell he was an important person. Judge Raviot wanted to know if W4 could clearly identify Jamil Hassan after his testimony to the investigative judge or before. W4 said he was not sure of his identity before but could then hear his voice through people whose identity he will keep secret because they do not want to get involved. These people refuse to come to court because they do not have the strength to come talk about intimate things.
Judge Raviot said W4’s family had real estate and his father’s property was confiscated and W4 reported before the investigative judge that his family worked in real estate and building trade. Air Force Intelligence Services claimed a sum of 2 million of Syrian pounds after W4 sold an apartment. Judge Raviot asked W4 to clarify this point. W4 related they arrived at his family home to arrest him, only a few days after the apartment had been sold. The money was at W4’s home. His mother was naive and went to see the policemen to ask to get the money back. The police answered that they themselves could do nothing and she had to accept the facts. W4 continued, saying his father died a year ago also because of the moral prejudice and all losses he endured, he had understood he could never go home and succumbed, W4 supposed.
Judge Raviot came back to W4’s brother-in-law who was identified in the Caesar file. W4 said he was [name redacted], his sister’s husband. W4 also mentioned [two names of people redacted], etc., all cousins they have no news about. Regarding his stepfather, a survivor from Kafar Souseh [Branch 215 called “Raid and Storming Branch” (فرع المداهمة والاقتحام) belonging to the military intelligence and located in Kafar Souseh, Damascus] (كفرسوسة) informed them about his death. The brother of W4’s wife had also been arrested and detained, he survived and traveled to Europe. He is disabled because they inserted a screwdriver in his knee.
Judge Raviot asked when he left Syria and W4 replied on April 25 or 26, 2015, he left illegally (طريقة غيرنظامية) to cross the Syrian Lebanese border. Judge Raviot asked if he now lives in France and if he is a refugee, W4 confirmed both and said he understands French.
Civil Parties’ Counsel Bectarte questioning of W4
Counsel Bectarte inquired about the geographic situation of the city of Al-Mo'addamiyyeh, stressing that seizing of land also occurred besides seizing of goods. She asked how far the city was from Al-Mazzeh. W4 said the 4th Division is under control of Maher [Al-Assad]. The region of Al-Mazzeh Air Base belongs to Al-Mo'addamiyyeh. The demonstration they had organized to reclaim this land concerned the territories seized by Al-Mazzeh Air Base but also by the buildings of the 4th Division, the Police residence and combat brigades (صراع), W4 stressed. Around 60 to 70% of the land that historically belonged to the population of Al-Mo'addamiyyeh had been confiscated.
W4 declared the land was occupied and shared between the Republican Guard, the 4th Division, the Fighter’s Brigade, and the Air Force Intelligence Directorate. Counsel Bectarte asked if some land belonged to W4’s family. W4 confirmed his family even had property deeds. W4 said he could never go to this land since he was born. One had the right to sell the land, but only to them [Intelligence and Army bodies] and they in fact bought the land. Many people sold it.
Counsel Bectarte recalled W4’s description of his 10 first days at Al-Mazzeh, as 1,200 people from W4’s town were arrested, and some of them released after 10 days. Among them were young people, not older than 10 years old, and seniors. W4 gave the example of one of the children and of a Sheikh [name redacted] who was around 90 years old. After their arrest, they were all gathered at the town hall (بلدية). Even after they [the police] saw the Sheikh [name redacted]’s date of birth, they did nothing. Some said he was already dead, and indeed it did not last long, he passed away some weeks after. [name redacted] from Darayya is another example. He was arrested at the same time, detained with W4, released after two weeks and arrested again, and they killed him.
Counsel Bectarte asked about [name redacted] who was found in the Caesar file, stressing W4 indicated during his hearing by the investigative judge that he was detained and had died at Al-Mazzeh. W4 confirmed, [name redacted] also bears a number, it is attested. W4’s sister was with him when he got arrested at the checkpoint that was under control of Al-Mazzeh Air Base. One knew all checkpoints and who they belonged to hierarchically. Each branch in charge of security had its own checkpoints. There were several checkpoints at Al-Mo'addamiyyeh entrance: the first one from the 4th Division, the 2nd one from the Air Force Intelligence Directorate, the 3rd one from the Military Intelligence (مخابرات عسكرية). When one crossed the 3rd checkpoint, the Intelligence Services (مخابرات) were waiting. This checkpoint killed a large part of Al-Mo'addamiyyeh’s population based only on grounds [inaudible to the trial monitor, but the witness likely referred to grounds related to the ID card that informed where the people were from]. It was located close to the Air Base. Videos circulated of children having been killed at that checkpoint.
Counsel Bectarte asked W4 how many of his family members were arrested, and if it was at the same time as W4 or after. W4 answered that some could escaped and others died (استشهدوا). His brother was not arrested, unfortunately for all other members [unclear]. The first detainee from Al-Mo'addamiyyeh was one of his family members, he was arrested on March 21, 2011 in the first demonstration and was 13 years old. He was released because it was Mother’s Day and he had tried to convince them that he wanted to offer a present to his mother.
Counsel Bectarte inquired about W4’s brothers. W4 replied that two of them passed away and one was arrested and is now at the hospital because of his fragile health resulting from torture and the place where he was detained [i.e. a place where the detention conditions were such that it severely impacted his health]. He should have been at the present trial, but he is sick and could not make it.
Attorney General Viguier questioning of W4
Attorney General Viguier asked W4 if the arrest and detention of children was classical and if they were generally subjected to acts of torture just like him. W4 said nothing happened in front of his eyes, they were often transferred from interrogation rooms to dormitories. W4’s memories of what he has gone through do not derive from what he saw but from voices one another could recognize. W4 affirmed he can tell that seniors were submitted to torture. They also heard children’s voices but W4 cannot tell their age for sure, he estimated they were between 10 to 15 years old. Attorney General Viguier recalled the 13 years old boy who was in his cell. W4 confirmed he was tortured, and he heard his voice. The cell had one door. [The jailers] did not interrogate in order to obtain information, they had fun. They would take the detainee out and W4 [and his inmates] would hear his voice and know. To answer more clearly, there were two rooms next to each other, and W4 was interrogated on a Tuesday. [The jailers] brought people from the other room to W4’s room, among them someone who just arrived from Japan and was from Dara’a. The first question they asked him was who was interrogated on Tuesday, because they were also aware that the detainees recognized who was interrogated when. The man from Japan was transferred and they asked him this question right away. [Trial monitor’s understanding: he could not know who was tortured on Tuesday since he was not there and might have been tortured for not knowing this information] So, basically, they were having fun.
Attorney General Viguier asked what fate was reserved for women. W4 had nothing to say. Viguier asked if W4 heard them. W4 replied that only men were arrested while he was detained, women were still not controlled at that time. It happened that women were arrested in Al-Mo'addamiyyeh but they were transferred to other places W4 has no information about. For example, in family B., not to name them, women and children were arrested simultaneously, and nobody has news of them since then. Attorney General wondered if they disappeared. W4 confirmed saying they were arrested at the checkpoint of Al-Mazzeh Air Base. Attorney General Viguier said she calls agents who committed torture sadists, and recalled that in W4’s words, they were having fun. She asked if W4 had an explanation for that sadism. W4 said he does not know why and stressed that there was not only one way of torture, but there were also steps. The first step occurred in front of the detention room, the most sadists (ساديين) were in front of those doors. In the interrogation office, one would exchange some words with them, because there were questions and answers, but that was not the case with jailers at the front door. In W4’s opinion, other people can answer more accurately on sadistic acts and personally, W4 was not subjected to such things. But there are people who do not even dare to talk about it. Attorney General Viguier concluded that it is possible to not be able to give a reason why they were amused.
Proceedings were adjourned at 13:30 AM and resumed in the afternoon at 14:55 PM
******
[Proceedings resumed at 14:55 PM]
Presiding Judge Raviot introduced the session informing the court of civil parties’ request for additional documentation being added to the proceedings.
Hearing of Civil Party - Mr Obeida DABBAGH (CP1)
Obeida Dabbagh spoke fluent French.
CP1 was born in 1952 and lives near Pontoise, France. He is an engineer, worked at the company Thales and retired two years ago.
Judge Raviot reminded CP1 that he doesn’t have to take an oath since he is a civil party and asked if he is linked to the accused. CP1 confirmed he knows none of the accused personally. Judge Raviot recalled that CP1 was heard on many occasions during the investigation and invited him to tell the court what he wants.
CP1 wished to answer in three parts focusing first on his family context that differs from most Syrian families, second on Mazen and Patrick Dabbagh’s arrest and how he knew of it and third, all actions he has undertaken since then.
1 – Family context of Obeida Dabbagh
The family is Franco-Syrian from the mother. The father studied in France in the 50s and married the mother who was from the Pas de Calais [department in North France]. The father then chose to go back to Damascus, and they had five children there, the youngest was Mazen. The father had a good situation in the Syrian State apparatus, he belonged to the Baath party from the beginning, together with Michel Aflaq. He was much appreciated and occupied many positions: customs director general, responsible for Syrian imports and exports in a society he created in name of the Syrian government. He dealt with the main leaders, including Hafez Al-Assad. After the coup of 1966, soldiers came with Hafez Al-Assad. One day, after the father had left the party, he was summoned by the President because of his disagreement with the methods. He was asked what he wanted to do, and he knew that if he stood his ground, he would be imprisoned for life. So, he merely worked for the Syrian State and was appointed to an institution similar to the “cour des comptes” [Court of Auditors] to settle corruption affairs. He didn’t like it. In 1978, he was asked to create a commission to try to fight corruption that started arising. He said to the president that if he must fight corruption, he had to start with the president’s own brother, and the president replied that it wouldn’t be possible. He applied to be counselor of the Secretary General of the Arab League in Tunis and obtained the agreement of the Syrian State. He was satisfied because he didn’t want to deal with home affairs anymore. He was not an opponent but did not appreciate practices of the regime and distanced himself. All CP1’s brotherhood lived in this atmosphere.
Mazen, the youngest, liked to laugh as a child. He was very handsome, and everybody loved him, he was his mother’s favorite. CP1 and his brothers went to school at the French “Mission Laïque”, the French Highschool, that was then nationalized. CP1 left for France for his engineer studies and worked at Thales. One brother left for Germany. Another who had moved to France recently died in Montpellier. Mazen was the only one who wanted to stay, and his mother was very attached to Syria. She often recalled how she went on the Orient Express train after the Second World War and how one would see country after country, what horrors war had caused and once arriving in Damascus, she could smell Jasmin, etc. So, she wanted to stay. She first occupied the position of Cultural Advisor at the French Embassy and then worked at the Charles de Gaulle Highschool that was inaugurated much later.
Mazen studied French Literature in Damascus. At that time, a law exempted Syrians from the military service if they worked in the Gulf states for five years and came back to the home country with some money. Since Mazen didn’t want to do his military service, that is the option he chose. Upon his return, he married the family’s neighbor, FM1 and they had two children. The boy was named Patrick to please Mazen’s mother and Abdelkader to please his father, because it was the name of Mazen’s grandfather. Mazen worked as an advisor and then a principal advisor. He was much appreciated at that school, mostly by the students. His uprightness, humor, and sincerity were appreciated by his colleagues, who would also feel a bit jealous. He had a bit of carte blanche [free rein], but his students admired him. The day of Mazen’s death, CP1 recalled having received multiples messages saying he was nice, cheerful, and improved students’ everyday life.
Henri d’Aragon, son of the French Ambassador, knew Mazen and wrote a text that CP1 wished to read, and that was added to the procedure. [He read the text, and the trial monitor only caught parts of it]. “Mazen Dabbagh was not the Arabe du futur [a French comic book about a Franco-Syrian family with Syrian father and French mother, the father been very traditional, male chauvinist and antipathetic], he was one of millions of Syria’s anonymous heroes of everyday life. He didn’t make a distinction between sons of archbishops and others, everyone had to uphold the values of the [French] Republic. He offered kindness, humor, and friendship to everyone who had a big heart like his. He contributed to cohesion. He died in prison after four years agony. His son endured the same path. Corpses won’t be returned. Mazen Dabbagh was Syrian and French. May he rest in peace, and may justice be rendered one day. The students at the French School of Damascus will join you one day.”
Mazen was generous, he had resources and didn’t hold back when helping people. After his death, some people came to tell CP1 that if they succeed, it was because Mazen gave them money. Mazen was cultivated and erudite, had a library home with 500 books he had all read. He had a spirit of contradiction and did not refrain from criticizing people from the regime who came with Mercedes cars. Mazen had never been in trouble with his straight talk.
One day, the daughter of Mustafa Tlass, Minister of Defense, [who was at the French School] tried to get out outside normal hours, and Mazen scolded her saying he will tell her father. The next day, Mazen was brought to see Minister Tlass and they discussed. Tlass said to him he understood his point and that he is a good person but gave him the advice of reserving his criticism. Mazen said he expected that. He was not bothered by the Intelligence Services after that. His French nationality also gave him a particular status, but he might have been under surveillance one way or another. Every citizen who comes to Syria from abroad is controlled and is filed by the regime. Mazen was never imprisoned for criticizing the regime.
Counsel Bectarte asked for family pictures to be displayed. CP1 commented on them.
- One picture of Patrick and his daughter FM2. Before 2011, they traveled to Syria once or twice a year and saw Mazen and Patrick at those occasions. They always celebrated Christmas together;
- One picture of Obeida and Mazen that was taken in the 90s;
- One picture of CP1s mother, Patrick, and the dog;
- One picture of Mazen and his children at the family house;
- One picture of Mazen with his children. CP1 commented that Patrick was a very beautiful child, blond, which contrasted with the family and that the grandmother was very attached to Patrick;
- One picture of Mazen and Patrick shortly before the insurrection;
- One picture of Mazen and his children.
Mazen was very close to his family, he and Patrick were fusional and loved being together. Patrick was very shy, but kind, and CP1’s children enjoyed seeing him. He didn’t have the profile of someone who was tough or mean, he was maybe a bit naive. That’s where CP1’s incomprehension on the reason for his arrest comes from.
2 – How CP1 learnt about Mazen and Patrick’s arrest
CP1 was at his niece’s wedding on November 3rd and 4th and had no information on the day of their arrest. When they got home on November 9th, CP1 listened to the message FM1 had left the day before. CP1 called her and she explained she didn’t want to alert him before because she thought it would only last a few days. She relayed that around 11 in the evening, agents of the Air Force Intelligence Services came to tell the family they wanted Patrick for interrogation and would give him back quickly. They came with informatics technical experts who asked for computers, money, phones, etc. They said not to worry and affirmed it will only last a couple of days. Mazen said OK and they took Patrick.
The next day, they [members of the Intelligence Services] came with more military and said to Mazen he had given his son a bad education and they now needed him. Mazen replied that his son was well educated, and they didn’t need to fear. He was in pajamas, and they told him to get dressed. It is useless to do so since “the first thing you will do is to take all my clothes away”, Mazen replied to them. One of them said “you have a nice car; we will take it”. From the start there was theft and racketeering.
The Ambassador’s car [the Ambassador of Cyprus lived next door] blocked the exit and they asked for it to be driven out. Mazen asked the driver to move the car, and when he arrived, they beat him up, since he was Syrian. Nobody knows where the car has been since then, and one day FM1 received a message about it. FM1’s brother FM3 who lived next door called her sister and joined them. FM3 was working for Mohamed Hamsho, a high-ranking Syrian official whose name appears on the European lists of economic sanctions. He asked [the members of the Intelligence Services] what they were doing, so he was arrested with Mazen.
On the way, they made a roundup [and caught other people]. Upon their arrival at the detention center, they were ordered to turn around to the wall, with their hands behind their backs and to wait there. Mazen had slippers. A person was released at the same time, so Mazen’s slippers were taken and given to him. They remained like that for 12 hours. The next day around 2 pm, they let Patrick enter where Mazen and FM3 were detained. FM3 recalled that marks of bruises were visible on Patrick’s skin and Mazen asked Patrick if they had tortured him. Patrick confirmed but said he was alright, and his father shouldn’t worry. Mazen was then brought to one cell and Patrick to another. The last words that FM3 heard from Mazen were “I am suffocating, I am suffocating, take me out of here.”
CP1 explained that they haven’t heard from him since then. The first thing he and his wife did was call the French Embassy in Syria where they had well placed connections to inquire with. They heard that [the Intelligence Services] had nothing against Mazen but tiny things against Patrick. Day after day, people came and said that the situation got dicey. The last message [the Embassy sent] was “Misters, stop coming and asking about them otherwise you will get into trouble”.
CP1 thought of contacting the Crisis Cell of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MoFA). [Before that] CP1 called a teacher from the high school and asked him to intervene. The teacher replied that he is a volunteer, that statuses had changed [i.e. he lost influence] and that he couldn’t help. CP1 called the Crisis Cell of the MoFA and the person who answered said his brother was not a hostage but imprisoned by a State of Law. CP1 replied that the Embassy had been closed for two years because of the war and that it is not a real State of Law. The person of the Crisis Cell suggested that he contact the French Embassy in Beirut to see if they maybe could help.
All steps taken in Syria had been unsuccessful and CP1 could not remain like that and accept that Mazen would be forgotten. CP1’s sister-in-law was a teacher and sent a letter to the National Syndicate of Teachers [SNES – Syndicat National des Enseignements de Second Degré]. But all without success. All people CP1 contacted in France had good will, so they went to the Red Cross which had ties with the Syrian Red Crescent. The Red Crescent could have transmitted a message to Mazen and appeased him, so he would know he was not alone.
One Day CP1 thought of writing to the French President François Hollande. He sent him a letter and received a response from his Chief of Staff two weeks later stating they would do all what was within their power to help his brother. CP1 was happy. He was contacted again and asked if his brother’s family agreed, CP1 said he doesn’t know and reminded them that he is the brother. Then CP1 asked FM1 to send a letter of agreement, which she did, and CP1 forwarded the letter, but nothing happened.
Then, a delegation of four French deputies traveled to Syria and they were able to talk with the authorities, so CP1 contacted nine deputies. Four from the National Assembly [Assemblée Nationale] and the Senate [Sénat] replied and agreed to see him and said they would do the maximum. But nothing happened. CP1 contacted the MoFA again and received a letter saying they were aware of the situation.
All these actions were undertaken between 2013 and 2015. In July 2015, when the Caesar Files were published, CP1 read in Le Monde [French newspapers] that Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius granted the OCLCH [French National Police Office in charge of investigation on international crimes] a mandate on inquiring if a French citizen was found among the pictures. CP1 knew that Mazen and Patrick Dabbagh’s arrest occurred after the Caesar pictures were taken but still called the commander of the OCLCH and he and his wife went to meet him. CP1’s wife had found a picture of her aunt’s son in the Caesar file. CP1 thought it is still worth making a statement to the Office, so that his wife could at least talk about her nephew even though he was only Syrian. It took place in October 2015.
After that statement, the FIDH [International Federation of Human Rights] learned about their case and Lawyer Clémence Bectarte called them. They met her on May 25, 2016, on CP1’s wife’s birthday, and received a warm welcome. Bectarte gave them two to three weeks of reflection. CP1 hesitated and told himself he would not give up and had overcome his fear, so he contacted her and started the procedures. Since the beginning of 2016 and the referral order of March 23, 2023, eight years had passed, and many things have changed.
In July 2016, the proceedings focused on torture and enforced disappearance but in July 2016, a person knocked at the door of Mazen’s wife to inform them about a decision of eviction from their home, showing her the document. FM1 took a picture that showed the document was fake [simuli”], an A4 with a stamp of the Ministry of Finance, Land Registry Department, with red lipstick on all edges. FM1 was told she had five minutes to take all her belongings and leave. She went downstairs and opened the apartment of Mazen’s mother to take a suitcase, and said this house belongs to her mother-in-law. So, they asked for the keys and took them. She left.
The person who first sealed off the apartment was M. Ismael, a former lawyer. He then took possession of the premises. The apartment of the mother-in-law was 220 m2 large, divided into two parts. The Dabbagh’s knew from the neighborhood that the person who lived in one of the apartments was Ahmad […] Ismael, son of the lawyer who came with that paper. The second one was Abdel Salam Mahmoud. It was not official, but people said he was married to the daughter [of the lawyer].
The document stated: “After the tribunal’s decision of the Syrian Arab Republic, we expropriate Mazen Dabbagh’s home.”
CP1 took advice from a lawyer since the apartment didn’t belong solely to Mazen Dabbagh, who possessed only a quarter of the house. The decision of expropriation concerned Mazen, but why would the three other brothers also be evicted? The lawyer conducted searches, and they discovered the issuing of a judgement which asked for verification of Mazen’s properties and if some were found, for their seizure (حجز). CP1 specified that the right term is expropriation, but they don’t have this term in the Syrian Arab Republic. The person who expropriated them provided a supporting document that authorized the Air Force Intelligence Services to use this flat over five years for a rent of 120,000 Syrian Pounds. This was in 2016.
After that, information came up that the regime delivered civil status cards of missing persons through a dedicated service. CP1 called and FM1 went to the service and obtained the documents stating that Patrick Dabbagh died on January 19, 2013, and Mazen Dabbagh on November 25, 2017. The cause of their death did not appear here but were found in other documents.
Around July or September 2015, FM3 contacted FM1 and told her to check with someone close to Abdel Salam Mahmoud who was ready to help them, if they were ready to pay. CP1 refused, considering it was a scam and that he won’t pay anything if he doesn’t have proof that they are alive. FM1 did pay 15,000 Dollars. They said they would move them to the prison of Adra but they then informed the family that after verification, Mazen and Patrik Dabbagh had died in March 2014. A second payment to obtain the death certificates would cost 15,000 Dollars they said, but FM1 didn’t pay it, and the matter was closed. They called other people pretending that if you pay 60,000 [Dollars], they would get them out of Lebanon, but CP1 repeated that as long he does not have proof that Mazen and Patrick are alive, he wouldn’t pay anything.
The document from the Syrian governmental service then arrived, confirming the death. CP1 was summoned by the [French] Judge, gave these documents and new counts for murder and possible war crimes of spoliation of someone’s assets were added to the file. A few months later, international arrest warrants were issued. CP1 then heard that an order for reference would be transmitted to the prosecution. A decision was taken in May.
CP1 concluded saying that after eight years of research, he always wanted to move forward considering that nobody else would do it.
3 – Actions Obeida Dabbagh undertook
CP1 shared his hope that Mazen and Patrick see, from where they are, that he never surrendered and was always there for them. They are torchbearers of hundreds of thousands of Syrians who have suffered the same fate. They are symbols of the fight against enforced disappearances that a regime of a country they loved practiced against them. They never felt in danger. CP1 said he hopes the international community can attack the head of this regime.
Mazen Dabbagh forced his mother to leave Syria in 2012 telling her she will be able to come back once things will have gotten better. Regularly, she asked why Mazen was not calling her and CP1 told her to keep in mind the bad network [that it was not working because of network’s connection]. She never knew that Mazen had been arrested. CP1 and his other brother had a different relation with her than Mazen. She wanted to stay in Syria. Fate decided otherwise.
CP1’s children suffered because they loved Patrick and often saw CP1 sad. They often asked why all this? CP1 answered he had to see it through. He hoped that everything that was said would once be told in front of a Syrian jurisdiction. Hundreds of thousands passed away. CP1 hoped that one day or another, several hundred thousand trials will take place, because at the end, there are a lot of people responsible.
Presiding Judge Raviot questioning of CP1
Judge Raviot asked when CP1 last travelled to Syria. CP1 remembered it was for Christmas 2010-2011. They discussed [about the Arab-Spring] and Mazen’s opinion was that it would never happen in Syria. Judge Raviot further asked if it was the last time he saw his brother and nephew and CP1 confirmed it was his last trip. Judge Raviot asked CP1 to describe, in some words, what became of Mazen’s wife and daughter. CP1 said they were afraid of taking any wrong step. Reprisals could have happened. They never wanted to take part since they wanted to remain in Syria even though they had the possibility of coming to France. After they were expropriated, CP1 told them to come and they did for a year, tried to resume studies, but then moved back, and the daughter started working at the French School in Damascus. They travelled a lot and regularly went to Istanbul, which CP1 always heard at the last minute, so he and his family would travel to meet Mazen’s wife and daughter there. They never wanted to participate in the investigation or give their opinion. CP1 said he understood.
Judge Raviot asked if FM1 received information on his spouse [end unclear]. CP1 said she tried all possible means. She went to Qaboon military police from time to time to see if there was information. She tried at her level. CP1 said he asked her sometimes to take a picture of Abdel Salam Mahmoud [in the flat] and send it to him, she said she couldn’t, and CP1 very well understood but told her that if he could have information for his file [it would help]. She did some things. Regularly, CP1 and his wife obtained intimate confessions. FM1 had information on who lived there. One of the new inhabitants once said, at a neighborhood's party he organized to present himself, “you know, I have eliminated a spy for you”. CP1 added that if you are in the category of terrorists or in collusion with a foreign state, Syrian law allows expropriation. A judgment was then issued, but didn’t express what they were blamed for, CP1 stressed they never had any idea on that and added that this judgment was included in the present file.
Judge Raviot concluded that to this date, CP1 doesn’t know when Mazen and Patrick died. CP1 said they first heard that they died in March 2014, then the family received the death certificates. CP1 added he doesn’t really trust the death certificates because they are official documents. He imagined the corpses were not at the same location. He said he is almost sure the regime had nothing against Mazen, the way things were done. They saw that Patrick was young, studying at the University, and could have helped people, maybe they saw his name on a mobile phone; but that day they had nothing against Mazen. CP1 thought Mazen might have taken responsibility for things Patrick did, for instance giving money, because if it came from the son, it must have originated from the dad. Mazen used to give money, maybe his son betrayed him under torture. CP1 said he tried to understand what silliness Patrick might have committed and never had in mind that he could have done something which deserved their death.
Assessor Simeoni questioning of CP1
Judge Simeoni asked if the actions CP1 launched in France were known in Syria. CP1 said that information had necessarily passed through social networks or Arab media like Al-Jazeera. There was no feedback on whether the accused received the information. Now, many of CP1’s contacts in Syria are sending him information, it means people talked about it. And considering the intelligence system, it must, at least, have reached Ali Mamlouk’s ears, and maybe the president. Judge Simeoni wanted clarification on whether it was known among the leading spheres or the population. CP1 said the population was certainly less aware, but some people knew about the case. From the people who demonstrated, among them legal workers and NGOs members, more knew about it.
Judge Simeoni asked why no inmates of CP1’s brother and nephew approached him if they saw them in detention. CP1 answered that fear plays an important role and stressed that some witnesses came but were not detained there at the same period of time. Generally, fear reigns, and nobody approached CP1. They never obtained information that Mazen and Patrick had been seen in detention.
Civil Parties’ Counsel Bectarte questioning of CP1
Counsel Bectarte recalled the declaration related to the payment by FM1 of 15,000 dollars and the confirmation that Abdel Salam Mahmoud was the one who managed the detention of Mazen and Patrick Dabbagh. CP1 confirmed and explained that FM3 initiated [the proposition of payment] through the intermediary of the businessman who worked with Maher Al-Assad.
Bectarte asked who this businessman was and what were his assets, adding that FM3 could be released because he declared that he worked for Mohamed Hamsho. CP1 said that once you are detained at the Air Force Intelligence, it takes a long time to be declared innocent, so it is safe to say that someone has made an intermediary, in that case Mohamed Hamsho. It happened on this level, since he worked for the President’s brother Maher Al-Assad.
Bectarte mentioned the decision of confiscation and stressed that FM1 asked for a land register extract, concluding that these documents proved the seizure. She asked CP1 how the lawyer he mandated in Damascus could contest [the decision of confiscation] and retrieve this document that was then presented to the [French] investigative judge. CP1 replied that he was an Alawite lawyer, so he had a certain power. CP1 chose him because he had a street-side presence and had more chances of succeeding than a Sunni lawyer. “We work with what is available,” CP1 said. CP1 didn’t know things would go that far and [only asked at the beginning] why the family was expropriated and why more than the quarter which belonged to Mazen was taken. The opposing party furnished some documents to justify why the shady lawyer of the Finance Services took the apartment. The judge said you are against the Air Force Services, so there is no hope. But at least they obtained the documents, CP1 concluded. CP1 first appointed another lawyer who they trusted because he was distantly related to their family [end of sentence unclear]. The lawyer [they engaged next] in Damascus managed to obtain a lot of documents.
The document mentioned in the transcript of the hearing of September 27, 2021, is the one which was retrieved by the lawyer, Bectarte explained.
Bectarte affirmed CP1 never knew the reason why Mazen and Patrick were arrested and detained for so long. CP1 confirmed he had no information and all actions he had undertaken aimed at understanding why and what they were accused of. CP1’s stepfather said they came for the house; he knew them well. CP1 emphasized his fight for finding the truth will continue until he perished, and hope Bashar Al-Assad will leave, and he can go back to Syria and know the truth.
Attorney General Viguier questioning of CP1
Attorney General Viguier mentioned the house lease from July 26, 2016 to July 26, 2021 that was added to the procedure and appeared to not have been renewed in 2021. It seems the Consulate of Cyprus moved into the house. Attorney General asked CP1 if he has information on the building’s occupants. CP1 said they knew that after Abdel Salam Mahmoud, a general of the Services moved in, namely Hafaz Ahsa [or Eissa, unclear to the trial monitor]. CP1 said Mahmoud Ismael for sure still lives there. He gathered no more information because it was useless to pursue investigations.
Attorney General Viguier asked if members of the Air Force Intelligence Services were still in the family building. CP1 confirmed two floors are occupied. Attorney General asked when they heard of Abdel Salam Mahmoud’s departure, CP1 responded he doesn’t remember exactly, around three years ago. Maybe the occupant changed at the end of the lease.
Attorney General inquired about Henri d’Aragon and recalled his mention of Mazen’s son who suffered the same fate because he had demonstrated. Attorney General asked CP1 if he contacted Henri d’Aragon. CP1 said he noticed this sentence [in Henri d’Aragon’s letter that suggested Patrick was arrested because he demonstrated] but was not sure Henri would have information on what happened. In Syria everybody gets arrested.
Attorney General asked about the consequence for CP1’s family, stating that the procedure showed that some of his French family members did not participate, and that a stepsister in Dubai intervened but then cut off all contact. CP1 thought that fear was their problem. Nobody thought it would succeed. CP1 had a deep motivation, and his fear left him. The more the information is publicized, the more difficult it will be to attack him, CP1 thought. Fear varies according to people, CP1 said he can’t criticize them. The Attorney General had the impression that some had cut their ties with CP1, but CP1 replied that contacts remained. His brother is in the room today, as well as FM1 and FM2. The whole family is aware, nothing got broken. CP1’s wife chose to become a civil party at some point because she understood it represented an important contribution.
Civil Parties’ Counsel Baudouin questioning of CP1
Counsel Baudouin reminded that Patrick Dabbagh was 18 years old at the time and that one can easily demonstrate at that age. He asked CP1 if the simple fact of having demonstrated could be a reason for his arrest or if this hypothesis should be excluded. CP1 said it was plausible. Arrests generally occur during the demonstration because after that, people are harder to find. CP1 would have demonstrated if he was in Syria, so he couldn’t stop his nephew to do so. His interrogations were due to the time between the son and the father’s arrest. CP1 was almost sure the father did not demonstrate but might have been suspected because of the help he gave to others.
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Audition of Civil Party 2 Ms. Hanane DABBAGH (CP2)
CP2 presented herself. She is an anesthetist doctor, born in 1958 and came to France after her wedding. She studied medicine and made her specialization in Syria. She lived nearby the Dabbagh’s family in Syria.
She said she was very afraid of becoming a civil party because she has a lot of family members in Syria. She worked with the Syrian State to know about their fate because the Syrian television once said that it was possible to know what they do with the people who are arrested. She called the Minister’s Office, and a woman told her they will give her information in the next 48 hours, but they have never replied since then.
CP2 is the one who found the lawyer because of her contacts and her large family there. She addressed a letter to the Ministry concerning the property and cited names, so she now knows that her name is at every checkpoint along all Syria’s borders because she expressed her opinion.
CP2 said she is honored to stand in front of the French justice and deplored that people who did nothing were arrested.
She was born in Damascus and lived in Dara'a, where the revolution started. The 18 children who were first arrested came from her sister-in-law’s family. What François Burgat said [on the first day of trial] is true, CP2 said. The police said, “forget them, make new kids and bring us your wives if you don’t know how to”. The Christians from Dara'a went to the Mosque. CP2 went to Syria when it all started, her children told her to not go to Dara'a but she wanted to see her cousins, two of them are doctors and one a garage owner. CP2 heard children had been arrested at the age of 11, parents had been tortured in front of their children, and children in front of CP2’s cousins. One of them, a paternal cousin, had a breakdown, a heart attack and then died. CP2 wanted to see the people from Dara'a and tell them she cared about them.
She relayed the story of her maternal cousin, who was very poor, working as a math teacher in the morning and a hairdresser in the afternoon to make his living and whose mother was disabled. He said he couldn’t go out [and demonstrate] because he had a family to feed and had to be there. CP2 heard he was arrested at 5 am, at the place where he lived with CP2’s aunt and his five children. They threatened to arrest him, or they would take all his money. CP2 tried to find the people who arrested him, and once, a woman with a Jordanian number called her; she had found CP2’s cousin in the Caesar File. Even though he had never demonstrated. CP2 added that you couldn’t say you knew people from the Caesar File, that is why she sent her the number [trial monitor supposes that out of fear, the woman calling from Jordan only mentioned the number of the corpse, and not the name of CP2’s cousin].
CP2 said she was afraid for Obeida and the family there. In 2021, she refused [to become a civil party] and CP2 was alone. CP2 wanted CP1's brothers to stand by him, but he was alone. It would have been easier if all the family participated. CP1 was the only one who still had family in Syria, but she refused to leave her husband alone. She is afraid but honored. CP2’s children were born here in France but suffered a lot because they didn’t live a normal life anymore. She heals people everyday thanks to social insurance, and in Syria young people who have nothing are arrested. CP2 mentioned a friend in the courtroom who saw her son in the Caesar file. CP2 said she would be ashamed if she had done nothing.
CP2 stressed that Mr. Hollande [former French President from 2012 to 2017] answered, and Mr. Macron [current French President since 2017] came to the hospital and talked with her. “You can’t imagine how we worked, everyone was nice, but nobody did anything”, CP2 summarized to the court. She insisted she is honored to be here because politics led to nothing and hopes justice will.
CP2 relayed she cried a lot. Hundreds of thousands of Syrians have nobody who listened to them. Bashar Al-Assad is still here, whereas Obama and Hollande left.
CP2 recalled her [male] cousin who was arrested at the checkpoint of Saraya [or Serghaya, unclear to trial monitor]. Her [female] cousin asked her for money to gather a large amount. CP2 thought money would change nothing, and her cousin said she was right, they had indeed killed him under torture. CP2 affirmed what is happening is not livable, her family doesn’t live anymore, even though they have resources, but the pain and stress is horrible. CP2 said she doesn’t want to bother the court.
Presiding Judge Raviot interrupted to say it has nothing to do with bother and asked her if she returned to Syria. CP2 replied she did it for a week, when it had already started in Dara'a.
Civil Parties’ Counsel Bectarte questioning of CP2
Counsel Bectarte reminded that CP2 became a civil party at the end of the investigation and asked her to talk about the funerals she organized for Mazen and Patrick after receiving the death certificates. She wondered if CP2 had done her mourning. CP2 replied that they have many French and Syrians and French-Syrians friends, but lost half of them because of fear. They also gained the friendships of French and Syrians who were affected by what happened. When they learnt about their death, many people were sad and came to send condolences. CP2 stressed that since the judicial proceeding started, she feels a kind of relief. Syria’s case was forgotten but there is important media covering here and there are supporters even outside. Mourning is difficult without bodies. CP2 said she also [contacted] someone in a good position, close to Bashar Al-Assad and only asked him for pictures and he replied pictures are not necessary, they are disfigured to such extent that CP2 wouldn’t recognize them. So, CP2 didn’t get pictures. FM1 and her daughter can’t accept that they are gone. CP2 concluded by saying she finds relief in being here and is happy to have achieved that after 8 years. She couldn’t tell 100% whether she had done her mourning.
Attorney General Viguier questioning of CP2
Attorney General Viguier mentioned the fact that CP2 was the niece of the Vice President who had been removed from office, and it was supposed that what happened to Mazen and Patrick Dabbagh could be a consequence. CP2 replied that her uncle was the Minister of Foreign Affairs and worked for peace with Israel and was also the Vice President for Foreign Affairs. He saw what happened in Dara'a and tried to organize a conference with the opponents and he listened to the people. CP2’s uncle knew afterwards that CP2’s cousins had been tortured and went out of his mind. He was then removed and did not even have the right to leave his home. Attorney General asked again about an existing link between both events and CP2 suggested it was credible because in her family, a cousin married to a Palestinian woman used to say that Bashar Al-Assad supported the [Palestinian] cause. His name was [name redacted]. His son was arrested and when they saw his name, they tortured him even more. Everything is possible. We will be pleased the day we understand, CP2 concluded.
[25 minutes break from 17h10 to 17h35]
******
Hearing of Civil Party 3 Mazen Darwish (Darwish)
Mazen Darwish talked in Arabic and had a man translating. The interpretation was clear and accurate.
Darwish presented himself. He was born in Damascus on December 21, 1975. He is a refugee in France and lives [address redacted]. He was a lawyer in Syria but is now president of the SCM [Syrian Center for Media and Freedom of Expression].
Darwish thanked Mr. President Raviot and stated he is here today as the President of the Center but also as a victim who was imprisoned at the Air Base of Al-Mazzeh. Darwish first stated that the torture and enforced disappearances did not start with the uprising, but before. It was a methodological way of action since [the Assads] took power. Even seizure of properties and assets or hindrance to life were an ongoing conduct (سلوك دائم) [of this regime]. The Syrian Regime proceeded to govern this way from 1973, and above all during the 1970s and through other events such as the Hama Massacre. So, it was not the first time the Regime used force against Syrians, but it happened again in 2011. Other massacres occurred when the Regime shot with live ammunition to put down popular uprising, like what happened in 2004 against Kurdish regions in the Northeast of Syria.
Without even speaking about the number of victims, the Regime systematically took the decision of methodological oppression. Its structure (بنية النظام) was put in place to preserve the power and Al-Assad’s family.
There are four principal Intelligence Services (أجهزة أمن رئيسية): the Military Intelligence, the General Intelligence, also called State Security, the Air Force Intelligence, and the Political Security. The Military Intelligence reports to the Ministry of Defense, like the Air Force Intelligence. But the General Intelligence directly reports to the President. The Division of Political Security reports to the Ministry of Interior. Administratively speaking, they all report to the National Security Bureau (NSB)(مكتب الامن الوطني). This Bureau was first called the Bureau of Popular Safety, at the time when it was linked to the Baath Party. It then became the NSB and reported to the President. These Bureaus are directly linked to the head of the Army, Bashar Al-Assad himself.
The nature of the organs is based on a repartition of the positions between several communities as well as a solid centralization and a strong independence between each other. The Air Force Intelligence and the Military Intelligence mostly rely on the majority Alawite community. Political Security has an important Alawite component but also relies on other confessions.
The judicial system was controlled and structured to serve this power, always relying on a confessional system. It is split into several components: the classical civil (مدني), criminal (جنائي), and military(عسكري) components, and additionally a religious judicial system. The regime also controls a bunch of special jurisdictions (استثنائي) such as the Court for State Security that was suspended to create the Antiterrorism Court and the Field Military Court (محكمة الارهاب و المحكمة الميدانيةالعسكرية). They are not judicial courts as you [Westerners] understand it. They are examples of the role these courts played in enforced disappearances and other events.
The prison administration is split between the civil and military systems. But other unofficial prisons and detention centers are managed by the four Intelligence apparatuses which have their headquarters in the capital but branches (فروع) in the Syrian cities.
Detention centers exist but are not regulated by any law and don’t exist on an official level [in that sense, they equal secret detention (احتجاز سرية)]. Since the creation of the Civilian Defense Forces(قوات الدفاع المدني), militias got their own prisons, the most famous among them being the Der Shmayel Detention Center (دير شميل). When the popular uprising turned from pacifism into an armed conflict, the militias all got their own official and unofficial prisons, among them the detention centers of Northeastern Syria in the regions under control of the Autonomous Administration supported by the American occupant (احتلال أمريكي).
In two regions in particular, the detention centers managed by the militias where hierarchically linked to the Turkish occupant. Not to mention, the communitarian confessional militias from Iran and Hezbollah (الحرس الثوري أو ميلشيات حزب الله). And of course, to be complete, the Russian occupant. ISIS also had control over a part of the territory and had its own prisons, like Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham.
Despite the presence of all these actors, the Syrian regime bears responsibility for 80% of the enforced disappearances and acts committed on Syrian soil. From 2011, the campaign of enforced disappearance and arbitrary detention (اعتقال تعسفي) gradually increased and Darwish said they managed to even obtain figures.
Figures were documented thanks to the Syrian Center for Human Right and the Violations Documentation Center [VDC] which belongs to the SCM. Other Syrian organizations documented these violations. Mazen Darwish couldn’t mention all the organizations but wanted to thank them.
The case of Mazen and Patrick Dabbagh is not isolated. The number of enforced disappearances seems much higher. Mazen Darwish said it goes beyond 112,000 cases. Numbers speak for themselves. Millions of people were arrested and never went back home. Mainly men, but children and women were not spared. In the Caesar Files, one picture of a Syrian young woman was emblematic. The regime truly imprisoned a young woman, and she died, as the Caesar Files documented. Imprisonment, torture, and extra judicial killing (قتل خارج إطار القانون) were part of this puzzle. Sexual violence was used as a war method (أدوات حرب), sometimes women were hostages (رهينة) so that the father and the son would surrender to the regime. Enforced displacement was also used to pressure populations from certain regions to leave for Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon, and to destroy the structure of the Syrian society. This was proven in many national and international reports, particularly the one of the COI [the Commission of Inquiry on Syria].
The fact that children were detained (اعتقال قصّر) is, at the minimum, proven. Darwish added that he himself had seen it. To complete the words of the experts, the police and all others, Darwish said that what was described still occurs while he is talking. There is no Syrian family which hasn’t suffered the loss of a close relative.
Darwish made a point on intimidation of witnesses and victims. Even if Syrians are beyond its reach, geographically speaking, family members might still be under control of the regime. They even fear the regime trying to reach them outside Syrian territory. It happened to a witness in that case who was very much afraid for his family. In Koblenz, Germany and in France, witnesses were threatened (تهديد) and had fears.
Forced return from the neighboring countries (Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, etc.) exists, mostly with Turkey and Jordan. But even in European countries, the perpetual discourse on return of Syrian refugees creates fears and doesn’t help justice since even people who have no family in Syria think they might have to return. Darwish said he is one of them. Darwish stressed he couldn’t understand how one could tell survivors to return in the security system which couldn’t kill them the first time but will have a second chance to do so. Darwish wants to return, he said, but needs legal and political guarantees (ضمانات قانونية وسياسية) that what he endured won’t happen again.
Those were the important points about the context, and Darwish started addressing his experience in the prisons of the Air Force Intelligence Services. In the name of all Syrian detainees, Darwish said they had only one dream to have a normal life, worthy of the name, freedom, and democracy, without thoughts of revenge.
Demands never stopped since the beginning of this tyranny (وجود الاستبداد) and it was generalized from the Arab Spring. Syrians from different ethnic groups and confessions participated at the start. Mazen Darwish recalled that Syrian Christian girls pretended to go to the Mosque on Friday to go on the streets. It happened in the Druze regions where peaceful uprisings continue even today. In March-April 2024, demonstrations took place in Qamishli, and they screamed in support of Dara’a. Mazen Darwish recalled what Ziad Majed talked about movements expressing peaceful reclamations in Salamiyeh and on the Syrian Coast (الساحل السوري). Of course, the number of people in the street differed depending on the region. Darwish said all participated in that movement, also in their capacity as men of law. He stressed there were no terrorists or extremists among them and despite that, they endured detention, enforced disappearance, and torture.
Some colleagues were lucky and fled to the regions that were no longer under control of the regime. The lawyer Razan Zeitouneh and Wael Hamada, Nazem Hamadi, and Samira el Khalil were kidnapped in Duma by Jaysh Al-Islam, east from Damascus.
Darwish’s arrest happened on February 16, 2011, when the brigade belonging to the Air Force Intelligence Services conducted searches and arrested people in the Office without any judicial proceedings (إجراءات قانونية). Darwish thought they were lucky because many colleagues were present that day and one of them sent messages before his phone was seized. This one text message saved them and kept them out of prison, because it was spread and relayed by the media before they disappeared. Darwish mentioned the 26-page testimony he gave and wished he would be brief today.
They all climbed in a bus driving to the Al-Mazzeh Air Base. Inside the Air Force Intelligence section of investigations, their personal belongings were taken, and they were transferred to the old prison (السجن القديم). Men were completely undressed and separated. each one in a cell. Women colleagues were also controlled and once they had been searched, they were transferred to a cell on their side. Darwish said he was separated from the others from the first day.
Darwish mentioned witness W3 who talked about what happened. Darwish said he prefers not to give the name of the witness but told the court that these acts indeed happened. Those are the conditions of detention under the security services, particularly at Al-Mazzeh Air Base. More than 100 people were detained in a 40 m2 room, without any aeration (تهوية صحية) to clean the air, without authorization to walk or the day light to penetrate the room. Without any medical system or care. Without the minimum food requirements (الحد الادنى للتغذية). Going to the bathroom wasn’t a need that was considered. Darwish said one must imagine cells transforming into mass graves (مقابر جماعية). A lot died because of direct acts of torture, but the circumstances also led to many deaths: respiratory disease ( أمراض تنفسية), diarrhea, etc. in addition to torture.
Torture wasn’t a new phenomenon in Syria, as Darwish already said, but it was linked to obtaining information. When interrogations stopped, torture stopped. But in the years 2011, 2012, and 2013, torture was used for revenge and destruction (تحطيم) of detainees.
Due to the increasing number of detainees and the impossibility to contain them all in the official and unofficial prisons of the regime, other establishments started to serve as prisons such as Al-Mazzeh Air Base, or other sports halls, aircraft sheds, etc. There was even a new prison [whose name was mentioned by Mazen Darwish but was unclear to the trial monitor]. Despite all these dispositions, there was still a shortage of places and a new system emerged (نظام الإيضاع), where someone would be placed somewhere as a “deposit”.
After 67 days, Darwish was transferred to the headquarter of the 4th Division, in the region of Sumariyyeh (سومرية). It is an artillery brigade which was part of the 4th Division. Darwish started explaining the system of deposits: the detainees from the Air Force Service were dropped off in this building of Brigade 555 for the needs of the Air Force Intelligence Services. So, the detainees were under the administration of the Air Force Services but deposited (مودعين) within this Brigade of the 4th Division. Even the food was transported from the Al-Mazzeh Air Base where the investigators were located, to the locations where the detainees were dropped. This prison was different from the ones that were administrated by the 4th Division. The 4th Division made part of its buildings available but had its own prisons. The detainees were dropped off in facilities that were not dedicated to prison, which was a way to oppress and even to ask for ransom [last sentence unclear to TM].
Darwish stressed again that he was talking about his own experience and his colleagues and that he testified as a direct victim of these crimes.
When Darwish was transferred to the 4th Division, he didn’t know his colleagues were transferred at the same time. From all methods of torture that were related, Darwish confirmed he either endured it, saw it, or heard of it from other victims. After this journey of six months spent at the 4th Division, Darwish was transferred to the Administration of the Air Force Intelligence Services (إدارة المخابرات الجوية) located on the Liberation Square in Damascus. Once he was presented to the judge at the Antiterrorism Court (which is a court in name only, but not in its substance Darwish added) he was transferred to the Al Qaboun Prison (سجن القابون). This prison consisted of a dispatching center. Then, Darwish arrived at the Adra Prison, a civilian prison in Damascus. Darwish’s colleague Mohamed Hani Al-Zeitani was transferred to Suweida, Darwish to the detention center of Hama, and his colleague [name redacted] to the investigation branch (فرع التحقيق) of the State Security, where again torture and violence took place. Then again, a transfer to the civilian prisons, and then to the investigation branch and another internal service occurred. That way, Darwish wished to illustrate the complexity (تعقيد) of transfers that facilitated enforced disappearance and exaction.
Darwish concluded saying the story of their suffering could last long days (أيام طويلة), that is why he wished to stop here and answer questions.
Presiding Judge Raviot questioning of Mazen Darwish
Judge Raviot asked how long Darwish was detained and what were the conditions of his release. Darwish related that this detention occurred after he and his colleagues of the Center were arrested for the third time, by the Air Force Intelligence Service. It started on February 16, 2011, and he was released on August 10, 2015. Darwish was released even though proceedings were still ongoing in front of the terrorism court, so it was a conditional release. Darwish appeared in that court twice, but the audiences were postponed without any measures. At the beginning of November, Darwish managed to flee to Lebanon and then Germany.
Judge Raviot understood he was tried but wanted Darwish to specify if one or several trials occurred. Darwish said he didn’t know if he had been convicted but the day he left Syria, he had not. His colleagues were brought before military justice. Some were released after a year, what was always followed by a referral from the terrorism prosecution to an investigative judge. Some of those people are behind us today in this room. O. Zeitani and Hussein, Darwish’s colleagues, were released around one or two months before Darwish’s release. But none were convicted. From 2014, a measure of amnesty was issued for them but never executed. They appeared at seven hearings of the court without any sentence been pronounced.
Judge Raviot inquired about the amnesty that didn’t lead to their release and asked for clarification. Darwish said it is always the case with amnesty (عفو), it is all just words, it was merely a political tool. At the very first measure of amnesty in May 2011, hundreds of detainees convicted for extremist affairs were released, even from security branches and the military prison of Sednaya. The aim was transforming (تحويل) the peaceful movement into a confessional conflict. The regime used amnesty to pretend to have listened to them and to be more flexible. But there were no transparent lists of names, most of the decisions of amnesty targeted persons who were detained because of serious crimes. The existing judicial system of the Military, respected more or less these measures of amnesty, but the Antiterrorism Court and the Field Military Court (محكمة ميدانية) did not really apply them. In 2014, the measure of amnesty included the mention of Article 8 of the antiterrorist law concerning propaganda of terrorist acts and apology for terrorism. The lawyer of Darwish and the others asked for them to be included in the amnesty, but the Antiterrorism Court refused, without making any written statement, and kept them in prison. That is why they were still in prison despite the amnesty, which every time was just talk.
Judge Raviot recalled Darwish’s explanation of acts of torture he was submitted to during his three years and six months in custody. Judge Raviot asked if torture was practiced continuously or sporadically and wanted Darwish to shed light on practices of the Air Force Intelligence Services. Darwish replied he was not tortured the first three days. The third day, he was transferred to a large investigation room. There were many officers, among them Jamil Hassan, head of the Air Force Intelligence Services. Darwish could recognize him and two other officers he met during the past two days but couldn’t recognize the other. They asked him general questions, with a political aspect. The first was “What do you dislike in Bashar Al-Assad?” Darwish left this room after he replied to several questions. He recalled the words of Jamil Hassan as he almost reached the door sill: “You are documenting because you want to send us the Hague, is that right?” It was an ironic but serious tone. Darwish answered no, because there is a need for a movement of transition that is just, so he documented for Syrians, as a Syrian citizen.
The next day, the torture started. For instance, they put Darwish naked in the prison yard, when it was cold outside. He was beaten with a green pipe they called “the green” (الأخضر) which refers to Al-Akhdar Al-Ibrahimi [green in Arabic is pronounced Akhdar], a UN ambassador with Algerian background. This was to humiliate these international bodies. That way, they were beating the detainees with the UN ambassador. During the 60 days at Al-Mazzeh Air Base, Darwish was directly interrogated about the SCM and the VDC. The work of the SCM was not hidden, and they had information on it. The biggest part of the interrogations concerned their work and cooperation with local coordination committees. The jailers mainly wanted to obtain the names of these people.
During six months in the 4th Division, there was no interrogation, they were not asked for information. But twice a day at least, torture sessions took place. For instance, by using sticks with electric charges, with Al-Doulab [tire], or beatings. Sometimes, they came late at night and asked who used his mobile. Of course nobody had anything, they were naked. The jailers then started the night torture parties (حفلة التعذيب الليلية) with 16 individuals. Once, one came with a red tie while the inmates were naked, because that amused them. Going to the toilets was under blows. Sometimes, they heard the voice of others being tortured, it was an indirect torture. Darwish was left in the prison yard for him to listen to that.
Sometimes, one could endure severe diarrhea due to food. Once, an inmate needed medical care, but they all knew nobody who went to the hospital ever came back, particularly the 601 military hospital of Al-Mazzeh and Tishreen. Darwish recalled they were so worried that they stopped eating and started a hunger strike because they didn’t want to get sick. What they heard was scary, the ones who left for the hospitals were executed.
Darwish recalled that after they started the hunger strike that night, he was taken to a floor at the 4th Division and beaten with hands, legs, and wooden sticks. They put him in the toilets. On the second day, he was sent to the Headquarters of the Air Force Intelligence Service at Liberation Square. There, one kind of torture was to be placed in an isolated cell (منفردة). Six people were detained in cells not larger than 2x1 meters. One would cross a road of blows and torture to go to the toilets. Depending on the mood of the soldiers, detainees had to stop [urinating] after 20 of 30 seconds and leave the toilets.
Several days later, a group of guards arrived. They informed Darwish that it was the first day of Eid, which he had already suspected. Darwish was told that the colonel sent him a present for that holiday. He was brought to the main corridor (الممر العام). In the 4th Division’s jails, one had to remain blindfolded to not see the jailers, and one was not allowed to look at them in the eyes. In that corridor, while Darwish was blindfolded, he saw many shoes around him on the floor, and they started beating him. Darwish woke up in the bathroom and had water dropping on him. Blood was mixing with water on the ground. That is what happened during this party. During the three to four days the party lasted, torture continued. Once Darwish regained consciousness after four days, he was not in the bathroom anymore but in a cubbyhole in the stairs. Darwish thought he was placed there with other corpses because they believed him dead. Darwish didn’t know how long he tried to move. A soldier who seemed to have seen him trying to move said “Darwish is alive”. Darwish thought he was saying his family name. They transported him to the next cell with a blanket. Some days later, he regained consciousness.
Judge Raviot mentioned the minutes of the hearing of November 10, 2017 and November 28, 2017 where Darwish related his precise prison career, with alternative periods of exaction and torture and other periods. Judge Raviot referred to the reading of these minutes.
Judge Raviot reminded the court’s duty of examining the situation of the Dabbagh’s arrest, detention, and death from 2018. Darwish information could help understanding why they could have been arrested and what could have lead to the son’s death. Darwish started answering the first part of the question. At the very beginning, arrests were random (عشوائية), spontaneous. People exercised their natural right to go out and demonstrate. Some people got arrested because of the denunciation of others (اعتراف آخرين). Some people were so tortured that they shared the name of anyone they knew, in order to be left alone. Some sons of businessmen were arrested in an attempt to extract money from them.
Darwish recalled a blind old man presented before an investigative judge because he was accused of being a sniper (قناص). Darwish couldn’t believe his ears and wondered if he maybe he became blind in prison, but no, he had been blind since he was born. In fact, this man was used to send a message to his village, his family, that even this blind man was not spared. It could have been any other accusation.
When their friend [name redacted] was arrested for the second time, he died couple of days later. He was so severely beaten up that he had an internal hemorrhage. Other prisoners had the luck that blows didn’t cause internal hemorrhage and randomly survived.
There were holes in the doors that allowed the air to circulate, which was better than in other cells. The body shape could also play a role. Darwish said he weighed 100 kilos before entering detention. Upon his transfer after a year in the Adra prison, he lost more than 60 kilos. Darwish supposed that some might not have survived because their body was more fragile, and the disease might have been more severe on them. Executions also occurred in detention. The ones who survived could then be convicted to the death penalty by the Antiterrorism Court and the Field Military Court. Hundreds of people were executed as an application of the sentences issued by the Field Military Court.
The prison of Sednaya was especially targeted by the court and Darwish specified that they were lucky because Kofi Annan intervened after four months to obtain their transfer. It is linked to the intervention of several leading figures, which enabled their file to be withdrawn from the Field Military Court and the Antiterrorism Court. That is the reason why they survived.
Judge De Mauléon and Judge Simeoni questioning of Mazen Darwish
Judge De Mauléon asked Darwish if there was a policy aimed at killing, and if from the beginning, the idea was to kill a maximum of detainees. Darwish said he couldn’t tell if there was such a decision, a sort of genocide (إبادة جماعية) but what he could tell is that the investigators had the green light. There was no issue or responsibility in case an inmate died. It was a well-accepted situation despite the amount of people who got killed. The objective was to keep the power in place.
Judge Simeoni mentioned the death certificates of Mazen and Patrick Dabbagh issued by the Ministry of the Interior of the Syrian Arab Republic. She asked Mazen Darwish what value can be placed on these acts. Darwish replied that, from his experience and based on the report of the Syrian Network for Human Rights (الشبكة السورية لحقوق الإنسان) which analyzed more than a thousand death certificates, the work of Syrian for Truth and Justice, and the Syria Justice and Accountability Centre, a kind of credibility can be given to these acts. In front of all these crimes, the Syrian Regime had to do something. Just as money laundering exists, crime laundering (تبييض الجرائم) also exists. It is a method to mask these crimes.
Judge Simeoni stressed that it also rendered a death official. Darwish replied that it concerned crimes the regime couldn’t deny, so the death had to be declared legitimate. The international pressure and the international eyes looking at Syria had to be taken into consideration. The policy of steps-by-steps ( سياسة خطوة بخطوة) is also a strategy. Several countries, among them its allies, put pressure on the regime to not be trapped in the quagmire of enforced disappearance. Darwish wanted to mention here the exceptional effort undertaken by the families who did everything to let this file live. They fought to obtain international solidarity, particularly the NGO of the Truth and Justice Charter. The efforts were crowned with success with the creation of an independent institution linked to the General Assembly of the UN. In Darwish’s opinion, it is a way of pressuring so that these certificates would eventually be issued.
Civil Parties’ Counsel Bectarte questioning of Mazen Darwish
Counsel Bectarte recalled other NGOs Darwish mentioned, such as the Syria Justice and Accountability Centre, the Syrian Network for Human Rights and Syrians for Truth and Justice. She asked Darwish if they once discovered that a Syrian who was declared dead was not. Darwish replied that from his experience, in the name of the SCM and VDC, he never heard of such a case. On social networks, many rumors are spread pretending that leaders aren’t dead, but Darwish said he personally didn’t know.
Bectarte mentioned the work of documentation undertaken with the database of VDC and asked if Darwish could share the analysis on dates appearing on the death certificates. Darwish explained that the analysis was based on around a hundred certificates and that they could access people who were detained in the same cells as the one mentioned on the certificates. Sometimes, they could communicate with families of the deceased who inquired on their own side, and the SCM wrote a summary on that. Generally speaking, the dates were incorrect but there was only a gap of a couple of days, not more. The dates corresponded to what they knew about these people. Darwish stressed he spoke about these hundreds of documents, but there were thousands of certificates which were actually issued.
Bectarte came back to the detention career of Darwish, who was arrested before 2011 and then for three and a half years. Bectarte stressed that Mazen knows all torture methods employed by the regime as head of the SCM and asked if all were used against him. Darwish said no, on the contrary, he considered himself to have endured the minimum of these tortures. There were many more torture methods he was not submitted to, for instance, cigarette butt burns, having to sit on a candle, been electrocuted on his genitals, the German chair, and much more. Darwish was suspended as a “ghost” [Al-Shabeh] but not with his feet, and during short periods of time. He thought he was lucky to only have been submitted to normal methods (أشكال عادية). He recalled a metal coffin in Al-Mazzeh where detainees were placed for hours, as Darwish heard from them. Darwish was threatened that his wife and his friend Yara would be raped, but that didn’t happen. Other detainees endured that. No children were in jail, but in the 4th Division, Darwish recalled a man with his 13 to 14-year old boy. There were stronger and crueler (قاسي) torture methods. Darwish concluded he was part of the lucky ones.
Bectarte said she has difficulties considering him lucky. Darwish replied he is alive, a luck that his colleague [name redacted] hadn’t had, or dozen and hundreds of peaceful friends and citizens who were not here anymore.
Bectarte started another round of questions. She recalled that Darwish was here as the head of the SCM and then as a civil party in the trial. He has documented and commented in hearings the facts that directly concern Patrick and Mazen Dabbagh’s fate. Bectarte mentioned a study of a chain of command of the Air Force Intelligence Services on the scale of Syria that Darwish added to the proceedings [D284] and where the names of Jamil Hassan and Ali Mamlouk appeared. Bectarte continued by saying that Darwish explained that Abdel Salam Mahmoud was appointed head of the investigation branch of Al-Mazzeh in 2010, and on the next page of the study, there was a description of all prisons that are located on Al-Mazzeh Air Base and depend on this investigation branch. Bectarte wanted to know how the SCM could conduct such a study, which methods and sources they used, and how old the study was.
Darwish said that all evidence he brought is the fruit of the dozen people’s effort who worked in the center, in particular at the direction of strategic litigation that is led by Darwish’s colleague Tareq Hoqam. Regarding the chain of command, his colleagues, Khaled Ghussein (خالد غصين) from the documentation section as well as the HR section and the financial section were involved. It is a collective effort. Darwish must not mention the names of several of them for their safety.
The methodology that was used to draw this chain of command was based on several criteria: the first level was to work with those who defected (منشقين) which enable the SCM to obtain information on the command from 2011 until 2015. They were two officers who defected from the Air Force Intelligence Services and six officer cadets, and other persons who defected. The experience of the SCM in Syria since 2004 was also useful, even though they had no official authorization. All these people contributed to drawing the general structure (هيكل العام) and put names on it. Darwish stressed that they have information on more than 300,000 victims. Some were identified, and they could document the stories that concern them and what they were submitted to. They were even able to identify the persons suspected of having committed these abuses. Some of this data was recorded thanks to the leak of official documents from the security apparatus. In that case, SCM operated with the website Zaman Al-Wasl, a media platform that published some of the data and kept some others confidential. SJAC and CIJA also furnished original documents. They also used open sources information from the SANA [the Syrian official media Agency] and from an official website of the Syrian Presidency. The social networks were also interesting to conduct comparisons, even though not all information available there was reliable. That is what Darwish could say about the chain of command.
Bectarte said the SCM is a civil party, and Darwish was heard by the investigative magistrate who asked to comment on several documents concerning the expropriation of the Dabbagh family based on his experience as head of the SCM. She said Darwish conducted verifications from elements appearing in these documents. She asked presiding judge Raviot if these documents could be displayed to the court. Judge Raviot presented a document, a decree of January 29, 2014, where the Military Tribunal decided the seizure of the real estate assets of different individuals whose names were listed, among them Patrick and Mazen Dabbagh. Bectarte wanted to hear Darwish’s explanations on this document. Darwish replied that after having analyzed it, he thought it was authentic and corresponded to the practices of the regime. At that time, the detainees from the Muslim Brothers suffered the same fate, it was not new. All people who are presented before the tribunal and arrested see their properties confiscated. In the Antiterrorism Court, for instance, anyone who is presented before an investigative judge sees his property confiscated even though he is not even convicted yet. Darwish confirmed that the document and its content are not shocking for him, it is usual. These documents are war tools used by the regime to have access to financial resources. In fact, real estate properties and assets that belonged to a person could be the reason for his arrest or his execution.
Bectarte asked what Darwish had to say about the presence of these names in this list. Darwish repeated it was a classic move when people were arrested. The security services, among them the Air Force Intelligence Services, collected all the names of detainees and put them in the same document to send them to justice. This document is not the only one of the sorts, there are many. It is again laundering of war crimes. Writing all names in one document is also a way of lightening the burden of justice. For instance, when they wanted to get rid of people, they put them on the same list as individuals known for arm trafficking. At one point, many new investigative magistrates were appointed because they couldn’t face that amount anymore. This behavior is commonplace, it is not an exception [explanation in document D353].
Becarte wanted to focus on two documents:
1- A judgment where Mazen Dabbagh was convicted of seizure of his movable and immovable property.
2- An order of seizure (قرار حجز) of the Ministry of Finance notifying the Air Force Intelligence, where Mazen Dabbagh appears in a list of names, that allowed the police to act.
Thus, Bectarte reminded Mazen Darwish’s declaration that this showed the direct involvement of the Air Force Intelligence Services in the treatment of these people. Bectarte mentioned a ruling of the Air Force Intelligence Services dated January 28, 2014, that concerned the request for seizure of the movable and immovable property of the first names in the list and the associated names. Bectarte asked if it was possible to conclude that this ruling of the Air Force Intelligence Services, which had a number and a date, was the one that ordered the seizure of Mazen Dabbagh’s properties and assets.
Darwish confirmed. They compared the names appearing in it and a video published by official regime channels. The people from that list were mentioned. It turned out that most of them were either dead or executed except for two people they hadn’t heard of for a long time but had no specific information on them. One of the people was underage and indeed detained by the Air Force Intelligence Services. Darwish’s colleagues spoke with him through an intermediary (وسيط) first since he was first in Syria. He refused [to talk directly to the SCM team, the trial monitor understood]. The young man confirmed through this intermediary that he saw Patrick Dabbagh at Al-Mazzeh Air Base. He specified that because he was underage, he had benefited from a measure of amnesty, and his period of detention was reduced. He recently arrived in a European country and Darwish’s colleague contacted him directly and he confirmed the information but apologized for not being able to give an official testimony because of his relatives who lived in Damascus.
Bectarte said it was Darwish who declared to the investigative magistrate that he was underage. The boy didn’t give many details, he said it was at the end of 2013 that he saw Patrick at the prison of Al-Mazzeh. It was a strange name; he was surprised to see a foreigner detained there and then realized he was Syrian. Bectarte commented that this was the first time someone was capable of identifying Patrick Dabbagh in the prison of Al-Mazzeh after November 3, 2013.
Bectarte asked Darwish was this trial signifies for him, as a Syrian human rights defender. Darwish said he thanked Obeida and Hanane Dabbagh who he supported in their complaint. Nothing could have been done without them. The case of Patrick and Mazen Dabbagh is legitimated, but this is for all Syrians. This court is not revenge (ليست انتقام) but one of the best ways to prevent it. Hundreds of thousands, even millions of victims, deserve that justice. Victims from all sides, victims of the regime, of opposition groups, of terrorist organizations, of regional or confessional militia, or the Turkish, Iranian, American, and Russian occupation. All victims, notwithstanding their situation, deserve justice and fairness. Each one who committed an exaction should be punished. This court will not render the justice the Syrians aspire to. One day there will be a system of transitional justice in Syria. Until then, they will continue knocking at every door and use every means to avoid it happening again and establish a durable peace and be able to ask questions that need to be asked.
Families of people who disappeared deserve to know where they are, it is a fundamental element of justice. The right to a cemetery is the minimum. It is what Maryam Al-Hallaq, the mother of Darwish’s colleague, had told him. To be able to recite the first Sura of the Quran. Darwish said he isn’t dreaming; he knows they stand light years from acceptable and fair solutions. Today is not the justice they are awaiting but at least a first step toward recognizing what happened. It is a first stone so that people will assume their responsibility and find these victims, know their fate, and render justice for them. It is a war that is not going to end, nobody will go back to Syria on their own decision. Terrorism won’t be annihilated without justice; it will happen again.
Attorney General Viguier questioning of Mazen Darwish
Attorney General Viguier wanted to come back to the accused. Concerning Ali Mamlouk, CIJA [the Commission for International Justice and Accountability] determined a period where he was head of the National Security Bureau from the end of 2010, after December 2013 and he was still in office on June 20, 2019. Darwish was heard by the investigative magistrate on January 8, 2019 and indicated that tangible evidence existed to prove his position as head of the NSB because he just visited Egypt ten days before. Viguier asked Darwish if he had further details on that period and if he could confirm that Ali Mamlouk was in the office at the NSB until 2019. Darwish replied that Ali Mamlouk was in command from 2011 to 2015 and that, in their opinion, he continued holding office after this date. He was recently appointed Advisor for the national security affairs to the President of the Republic. Ali Mamlouk was at the funeral of the Iranian President in that capacity.
Viguier asked for clarification about the distinction between documents stating Ali Mamlouk was head of the NSB until 2015 and the sources of information about the period after. Darwish said there are documents proving he was in office from 2011 to 2015, and they have information proving he stayed there after this date.
Viguier mentioned Catherine Marchi Uhel’s statement that he could have been removed from office in 2015. Darwish replied they had no exact information on what she mentioned. But what is certain is that he was still in that position in 2015 and after. Darwish’s team has no information on whether he lost a bit of his power or was placed under surveillance.
Viguier asked how Darwish could be sure. Darwish replied that his information stems from observation of the Syrian situation from their sources in Syria. Al-Jazeera has mentioned official visits of the Head of the National Security after 2015 and the Syrian government itself has also released official news about that. Darwish emphasized that in their point of view, he had not been excluded or removed from his position in 2015. Viguier asked if Ali Mamlouk is still Counselman of the President today. Darwish replied that the names of the positions changed. In 2024, a new entity called the General Secretary of the Presidency of the Republic emerged. So, he was reappointed and is now a security advisor. Viguier wanted to understand if only the names of positions changed or also the functions. Darwish said Ali Mamlouk was in Iran in the last 48 hours as part of the Syrian delegation presided by First Minister Hussein Arnous.
Viguier asked Darwish if he agrees with the reports of CIJA on the fact that Ali Mamlouk was in office at the end of Summer 2012 and until 2019. Darwish confirmed and added that he heard that Ali Mamlouk was sidelined. But he was the security advisor of the president and reappointed in 2024 and became in charge of security.
Viguier had the same question for Jamil Hassan, stressing that according to CIJA, he was in office from 2009 until at least October 2017. The IIIM agrees on the date when he started and specifies that he stayed until 2019. Darwish confirmed Jamil Hassan accessed the position in 2009, according to their information. It is certain he remained in office until 2017, but they have no certainty until 2019. Rumors said he suffered a heart attack and retired. Darwish could confirm he most certainly was in office from 2009 to 2017. Viguier concluded that he didn’t know exactly after 2017. Darwish confirmed he is not sure about these two years.
Viguier inquired about Abdel Salam Mahmoud and said Darwish did not comment on the dates of his appointment in the hearing by the investigative magistrate but indicated that Mahmoud’s reputation grew from 2011 proportionally to Al-Mazzeh prison. Mahmoud became director, and this was the detention center where there was the most torture and where the Investigative Branch was well known to be the hardest. It acquired such a dimension that even places such as the hangar or the Sports Hall of the Air Base were turned into detention cells. Abdel Salam Mahmoud became more famous after 2011 and there is not one family in Syria who didn’t have to deal with him. Before 2011, he was an ordinary person nobody ever heard of.
Darwish replied that appointments to security positions in Syria are confidential. Nobody talks about it in the media or before the National Assembly. No official sources can be used to obtain information. Darwish said that from what they transmitted, the document which covers the chain of command, they can affirm that Ali Mamlouk, Jamil Hassan, and Abdel Salam Mahmoud were in these positions from 2011 until the beginning of 2015. Abdel Salam Mahmoud was not known before 2011 and from 2011 and before the huge number of detainees, his name came out. Before 2011, he had a good position, but the Syrians did not know him, after 2011, they did.
Viguier asked Darwish if he affirmed that between 2011 and 2015, Abdel Salam Mahmoud was head of the branch of investigation at Al-Mazzeh. Darwish confirmed.
Viguier asked if, based on his experience as a detainee at Al-Mazzeh Air Base, Darwish saw that some detainees were not submitted to torture. Darwish replied that torture starts when the person hears that he will be transferred to Al-Mazzeh. Knowing that is already a torture in its own right (تعذيب حقيقي), at least on the psychological level. There is already a psychological prejudice even if the person has not been tied as a ghost [Al-Shabeh] yet. In Darwish’s opinion, all who were transferred there were systematically tortured.
[Proceedings were adjourned at 09:01 pm]